This Is How We Rise with Nika Lawrie

How To Overcome Codependency and Thrive In A Healthy Relationship with Michelle Farris

• Nika Lawrie, Michelle Farris • Season 2021 • Episode 15

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Michelle Farris is a licensed psychotherapist and anger management specialist. In her private practice, Michelle found her sweet spot in teaching relationship skills that are easy to implement quickly. Michelle has written three e-books and has created an online course to support healthy relationships. Her articles have been featured in several online publications including Psych Central, Bustle, Your Tango, and The Daily Positive.

Today she shares her best tools and techniques to identify a codependent relationship and how to manage it if you're in one. There are tools for healthier relationships of all types shared throughout this episode.  

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Nika Lawrie:

Welcome to the Inspired with Mika Laurie podcast. Joining the show today is Michelle. Welcome to the show. I'm so happy to have you here. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, so you have kind of an interesting story and then you've started working with a topic that is really really important, I think, to discuss. Can you talk a little bit about your personal experiences and inspiration and kind of what led you to where you are today?

Michelle Farris:

Sure. So I think I was one of those rare kids that kind of knew they had a dysfunctional family happening. Yeah, I just knew like okay, something isn't right here.

Nika Lawrie:

And so for some reason.

Michelle Farris:

I asked my mom at 12 years old to go to therapy and she did so. We actually did like a year of therapy together. That's incredible, I know. And I look back and I even asked her now. I said how did? How did you say yes to that? She goes? I don't know, I just did it, that's what I got, and I just it was in the back of my head and I thought, wow, I really really liked that. And then a couple of years later, one of my girlfriends at 14 got sober, wow, and she took me to AA meetings because I was like sure I'll go and I love that because you could see and feel everybody's honesty and camaraderie and I just thought, oh, that is so cool. And then I didn't really think much of it. But when I went to college I thought that's really what I want to do. I really like people, I like the workings. And then when I started my own personal work because I didn't get the rule book of life like most people didn't yeah, I'm still waiting for mine.

Nika Lawrie:

Yeah, yeah.

Michelle Farris:

Yeah, and you know, I kind of crashed and burned the first time out in college because I really didn't know what to do. Yeah, I didn't understand self-care. I definitely didn't understand boundaries and codependency. I was a huge people pleaser and so when I got into my own work, that made me realize, oh, there's a better way and you can actually be happy and create better relationships when you're on the path. And that solidified it. So I just I knew that's what I wanted to do.

Nika Lawrie:

That's amazing. That's incredible for your friend at such a young age too, but I love. I love that it inspired you to learn and grow and then also use that inspiration to help others. What a powerful, powerful story, yeah.

Michelle Farris:

Well, you know, I don't think people have a lot of places to go where they can really be themselves, because all of us are worried about what people are going to think of us and how we look, and in those type of groups, you know, the whole purpose is to get support. So you have to be honest and I think that's where it really bodes well for kind of doing life a different way, versus having to look good and do what we think we're supposed to do versus who actually are with me, you know, and I can be totally different road.

Nika Lawrie:

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I did a, I did a video training. I do these short little things for a company I partner with and yesterday we were talking about removing the stigma from getting support for mental health issues and you know it's. It's along those lines. So many many people struggle with finding ways to get help and feeling that shame from it, and it's so important to just encourage people to go, because there's so many different opportunities to receive help and that's so good that you're doing that spreading the word.

Nika Lawrie:

Right back at you. Thank you, that's so good.

Michelle Farris:

So can you? The topic really for today is really talking about codependency and this one's kind of near and dear to my heart. I was in a difficult relationship for quite's probably 10, 20 different definitions out there. I mean there's a ton of material, but for me it's about a pattern of relationship where you're basically sacrificing yourself for other people. So your focus is helping, rescuing, possibly controlling to get approval, because the codependent person doesn't have a strong sense of self, so they need other people to fill them up.

Michelle Farris:

And the thing is is, you know, it's not just with a romantic partner. You can do this with a kid, you can do this with a friend, you can do this with your parent. I mean it really can become a pattern of behavior. But the other thing with it is that you know it looks different on different people, absolutely, yeah. Yeah. So you might relate to people pleasing, but you might not relate to being a controller. So some people go well, I'm not a people pleaser, so I'm not codependent. But there's so many symptoms and it looks different for everybody. So that's why I just urge people, you know, just look at the symptoms and just see if any of them fit, because if you can start to target those patterns. Even if you're not a full-fledged codependent, it can really help your relationships.

Nika Lawrie:

Yeah, I think you know in my case I, you know, I really struggled with the idea that I was codependent. I didn't really connect with the typical definition of it. I'm very strong, very independent, you know, take care of my own business. But I was in a relationship with someone who was an addict and you know, it was his safety, his needs. His security really always took precedent over my needs and my well-being. And once I was out of the relationship and distanced enough, that's when I started to realize, wow, I really did have codependent tendencies and I think that's why I stuck in the relationship for so long. And so I love that you're talking about how people don't necessarily identify with it all the time, even though they may have those tendencies or habits. Because it's important you need to be able to pull yourself out of that relationship and take care of yourself.

Michelle Farris:

Well and most people, like you're saying, identify it with alcoholism because that's how it first came about is that it was the codependent and the alcoholic. But it can be the codependent and the narcissist person who's very self-centered, lacks empathy, and that can be a match made in dysfunctional heaven, so to speak.

Nika Lawrie:

Yeah, so what are some of the ways that we can identify whether or not we're in a codependent relationship, whether that be with parents or coworkers or loved ones like partners?

Michelle Farris:

So one thing I say to my clients a lot is we all have 12 emotional eggs. Let's just say If 10 of them are in one person's basket or everybody's basket, then there's a lopsidedness to codependent relationships. When I have looked at my own codependent relationships, whenever I get stuck it's when I'm wanting them to be my friend a little too much. Yeah, yes. So instead of like it's okay, we'll talk, when we talk, it's oh, I can't wait to talk to that person, and there's a neediness or a dependency that is very different than healthy relationships.

Nika Lawrie:

Yeah, yeah, and there's a sacrificing yourself, too, that's such a great way of defining it. It really kind of shifts perspective that it's. It's almost like not feeling secure in your own body, your own wellness. You have to really find that security in somebody else, Right.

Michelle Farris:

And that's why these people are doers. They're the ones volunteering for all the projects. They are super responsible. I mean, that's the good news about, you know, people with codependency is that they usually are tremendous givers. And you know, that's part of why sometimes they don't want to get into recovery, because they don't want to change that, because that's become a part of who they are.

Nika Lawrie:

Yeah, yeah. So how do you identify the difference between being generous and being codependent?

Michelle Farris:

So if you can give and be generous without it hurting you and without feeling resentful later, you're good to go. But if I'm giving something, hoping secretly, well, they didn't give me anything back and now I'm storing a resentment, and now I'm not going to say it because I'm people pleaser and I'm not going to do conflict, yeah, it piles up versus now I can say no to something and not feel guilty because I know it's my time and my return that I've never actually asked for. It's really tricky for the other person because they have no idea what we're doing and they have no idea why we're so upset or maybe give them the silent treatment. I mean, all that stuff is very under the surface.

Nika Lawrie:

Yeah, yeah. How do we start creating boundaries or building boundaries around that? I know that was something that I really struggled with for a long time because I'd gotten so accustomed to giving and being there and providing support that when I started to set those boundaries and pull away, it felt extraordinarily uncomfortable for myself and caused conflicts. How do we kind of negotiate that?

Michelle Farris:

Well, first that's the part that we want to normalize is that it is going to feel uncomfortable at first. There is no ticket to setting boundaries, that's easy. Yeah, I mean, there just isn't. You have to get over that fear of oh God, what are they going to think? What if they get mad? What if they leave? Right, yeah, but most of those fears. There's a great acronym in 12 step programs for fear and it's called false evidence appearing real and I love that I do too, because it's like most of what we fear doesn't really happen.

Nika Lawrie:

Yeah, yeah.

Michelle Farris:

So we have to kind of confront those beliefs and those fears. And then the other thing we have to do before setting boundaries is figure out what is it that we even want, like what's important to you in a relationship? Do you want lots of time together? Do you want something more independent? You know? What values do you want to have in common? All of those? Do you want somebody that drinks in your life? Yeah, yeah, you know. The classic boundary is I don't want you to in your life. The classic boundary is I want you to stop drinking, but that's not a boundary, that's a request. Now, a boundary would be when you start to drink, I'm going to go in the other room because I don't want to be around it. So you're letting someone else do themselves and make their own choices, but you're choosing whether or not you want to participate in that.

Nika Lawrie:

And how do you manage your guilt? A lot of times I know for me I struggled with feeling guilty that I wasn't there sometimes when he needed me or there was some kind of situation. How do we kind of overcome that and realize that we don't have to feel guilty?

Michelle Farris:

Right. Well, it's that thing of getting the focus off of them and onto you, because we have to let people have their consequences, because that's the only way that they might have a chance at recovery. Or even if it's somebody who isn't an addict, it's like if I can give you the dignity to make your own decisions, then I'm letting you be the adult you need to be Right. Right, yeah, and if I feel guilty, then I'm probably feeling responsible for the other person, yeah, and I have to undo that yeah, and say, well, am I really responsible for you? Probably not, but that takes, you know. The other part of the guilt and the boundaries is having a support system, because it's really hard to do codependency by yourself.

Nika Lawrie:

Yes, yeah, it becomes very isolating. It sometimes feels like, you know, even those in your support system don't necessarily understand why you're in the situation you're in and why system don't necessarily understand why you're in the situation you're in and why you don't just walk away, and then you feel alienated from them and it kind of just spirals from there. So, yeah, because you feel, judged and not supported.

Michelle Farris:

But if you're with other women who are going through the same thing, you're like oh, I'm not alone, they're struggling too, and we can talk it out and figure out what our next step is and that's what recovery is Right.

Nika Lawrie:

So what are some of the steps that we can start taking to start recovering, to start protecting ourselves?

Michelle Farris:

So the first thing I would always recommend is checking out alan on our coda. I know sometimes people have, you know, myths about code, about 12-step programs, that they're a cult, they're a religious program and they're not. You don't have to believe in god, you can be an atheist, but it's free support and it literally walks you through 12 steps. That is going to help you recover and I don't know a faster way. The only other thing I suggest to people, if they're really dead set against 12 step programs, is find a couple codependents that you know, get a book or a workbook and work through it together and start having weekly or monthly chats, because codependency you can't recover by yourself.

Michelle Farris:

Because I'm going to want to stay a people pleaser because I get a lot of kudos for that, yeah, but if you tell me, well, michelle, you know you did that last month and it really you crashed and burned I'll be like, oh, you're right, I did, and it really you crashed and burned I'll be like, oh, you're right, I did. And it's going to motivate me to remember the pain, because by ourselves, I don't think we remember the pain. We just want to try the same thing over and over again, expecting different results, which is the definition of insanity, insanity.

Nika Lawrie:

Yeah, yeah. So you know, for me, I know, once I was out of that relationship and started to kind of move on with my life, I found that once I was in a healthy relationship, the individual I was with was, you know, basically perfect. You couldn't ask for a better person to be with. But I felt really uncomfortable. It took me a long time to adjust and feel like this was a safe, okay good place to be in. How do we, you know, get comfortable in safer, healthier relationships after being codependent for a long time?

Michelle Farris:

Well, you did it by staying.

Nika Lawrie:

Yeah, it took a lot of work, yeah.

Michelle Farris:

So you were willing to hang out in that uncomfortable place where you're like, oh, this doesn't feel really comfortable, it doesn't feel familiar, but you knew it in your gut. I got to stay because this person's worth it. Yes, yeah. So that's where the recovery comes in, because I'm guessing you probably had support around that.

Nika Lawrie:

Yeah, yeah, lots of support, and I mean it probably took me two and a half three years to start feeling comfortable.

Michelle Farris:

Yeah, took a long time, yeah Well, and what we're familiar with is usually our family of origin. Even if it's dysfunctional, we know it.

Nika Lawrie:

Yeah, yeah.

Michelle Farris:

So it's much easier to go. Oh, I can do that, but somebody who really loves me and treats me well. If you're not used to that, it's going to feel really foreign and really uncomfortable, even though mentally we want that. But we have to train ourselves to get more comfortable with it, absolutely.

Nika Lawrie:

Are there any good signs to codependency?

Michelle Farris:

Oh yeah, I mean, I think the generosity and they're you know, again, they're usually the first people to help, first people to volunteer. They get a lot done. Yes, they're going to want to help and they have that big heart. So that's what you want to preserve. You just want to be able to give without it hurting you. So once you cross that line of okay, I'm now sacrificing myself and I'm actually giving them time that I need to give to my kids, that's when you know, okay, pull back. You know, give what you can give without it hurting you or your family.

Nika Lawrie:

And that takes practice. It does. I mean I found even years out that I still have to kind of find that line that's comfortable and make sure that I stay kind of balanced on top of that and not, you know, go too far in either direction.

Michelle Farris:

Well, and that brings up a really good point is that recovery is messy. This is not a perfect like okay, now I'm gonna start setting boundaries and now I have to go down the list. No, I make huge mistakes, but the difference is is I know I can go back and go oh, why did I do that? And I will learn something really, really valuable.

Nika Lawrie:

Yeah, that's. I think the most important thing is, instead of feeling guilty about something that you've done or struggled with, instead switch your perspective and figure out how to learn from it so it ends up being a value to you instead of a detriment.

Michelle Farris:

Yeah, because there's a reason you made the choice. You did yes, yeah, and it usually ties back to something we haven't worked out yet. And with codependency recovery, it's like a tree with a million branches, I mean it can go everywhere, yeah.

Nika Lawrie:

Yeah.

Michelle Farris:

So I'm never going to get to the point where I'm there and all my relationships are perfect. There's always going to be something I'm working on with someone that I may be intimidated with or something I'm afraid of, but the more you do it, the easier it gets Right right.

Nika Lawrie:

How do we stop feeling angry towards the people that we were in codependent relationships with, or the people who are continuing to ask too much of us or kind of hit our triggers, maybe?

Michelle Farris:

That's a really good question, because most codependent people will not do their anger, they just shove it down. Yeah, they're going to shove it down, they're going to get sick, they're going to feel resentment, but they're not going to really let themselves have it. I didn't let myself have it for many years until I got to the point where I thought, okay, I am now so frustrated, yeah, so we have to get to the point where because anger and that's my other specialty is that you know there's a reason you're feeling angry. You know, maybe you feel taken advantage of, maybe you feel like you've been saying yes when you mean no for years. Yeah, every time you see this person, you're frustrated.

Michelle Farris:

Yeah, that's really good information, because some of that may be anger at yourself for the choice you made, and some may be to that other person. But we kind of want to balance that, because we have a part in everything, and that's the hard part is, sometimes we have to look at wow, my choices weren't great and, as a result, I'm here, but that's not. You know, I don't want people to slip into shame, because this is all part of the process and nobody does it perfectly. So we are going to make mistakes and we are going to look back at some of our behavior and go, wow, that that was painful. But I will guarantee you, if I sat down with you and heard your story, whatever behavior you did would make sense to me and I validate it because there's a reason. There's a reason why we do what we do.

Nika Lawrie:

Is there a way to, you know, start releasing some of that anger? How do we, how do we work through those emotions?

Michelle Farris:

I think with codependency, the easiest way to start is to start writing Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Write that letter. You'll never send.

Nika Lawrie:

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Farris:

Write the uncensored, ugly version, get it out or go in the garage, make sure nobody's around and say exactly what you wish to say out loud, without any censoring, because part of anger is really acknowledging. Okay, there are valid feelings there that we have to get to. It may be a while before you're feeling safe enough to do it to somebody else, right, that's the biggie for the codependent. Who's a people pleaser is? They don't want to cause any upset, but if you're at least acknowledging you know what what they said really bothered me. Yeah, if I'm at least acknowledging it to myself and I could do some writing, I could talk to some people, I could work a step on it. Then I can do something without necessarily always going to the person, even though you know if it's an intimate relationship, you're going to want to be able to at some point say something. But that can be, you know, later on in recovery often.

Nika Lawrie:

Absolutely yeah. What does I mean? What does being healed or healing from codependency really look like? How does the personality of the person shift or what aspects do they present differently?

Michelle Farris:

So they have a solid sense of self. That's a big one. They're taking care of themselves. Big one they're taking care of themselves. They have balance in their life, which means you know, you have self-care, you work, you might have your volunteer job, but it's balanced Right. You can give, you can receive, it's not.

Nika Lawrie:

Oh, my God, I'm running 120 miles an hour and I'm wiped out. Yeah, you know, or I'm which I think is how most of us tend to feel, right.

Michelle Farris:

Or you come home and you yell at your kids because you're so spent. You just you have to explode somewhere. Yeah, yeah. The other part is trusting yourself.

Nika Lawrie:

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Farris:

Because I think that, as a codependent, we don't do that. Because I think that, as a codependent, we don't do that and we look to other people to validate our experience and sometimes even dictate our experience versus well, wait a minute, how do I feel about this person? Yeah, do they even feel safe to me. Am I trying to put a round peg in a square hole? What am I doing? Right, right, you know.

Nika Lawrie:

Yeah, round peg in a square hole. What am I doing, right? Right, you know, yeah, I think I think also, sometimes people struggle with um. You know they'll have a, the, a really important relationship, say with like a parent, for example, and and they want to have that relationship because they are the parents. But sometimes those parents create um anxiety for these people, or create triggers and things like that. How do we kind of manage that? How do we create boundaries around those individuals yet still have healthy relationships with them?

Michelle Farris:

Yeah, that's a really good point because a lot of sometimes when you get into recovery, your family most often doesn't Right, so they they stay in the dysfunction because they don't know any better. They don't. They don't see recovery as an option. Yeah, so you know, some of recovery is being able to accept people for who they are and set appropriate boundaries as a result. So, for instance, let's just say, when my dad was drinking because he was an alcoholic when I was growing up, if I were to go home and ask him okay, dad, I don't want you to drink when I'm calling you. Yeah, so I might.

Michelle Farris:

For people who have alcoholic parents, maybe you call in the morning when you know they're sober. You know, maybe you don't go to certain events because you know they're drinking fests, right. But or you find other ways to connect that are neutral. Yeah, you know you don't talk about the super hot topics or you don't go to them for emotional support if you know that every time you do they make you feel worse. But there might be some lighter topics that you can connect with. Yeah, I think that that's so. It's really being able to figure that out. Yeah, I love that. I think it's really different.

Nika Lawrie:

Such an important aspect is understanding that you just pick different topics. You can still engage with that person, you just discuss other things. So can you tell me some of the resources that you suggest or that you have available for anybody that might be struggling with this and really trying to overcome? Definitely?

Michelle Farris:

So the first thing I would actually suggest is Al-Anon or Koda. Now, the difference is Al-Anon is a much longer, more established program and that's technically for friends and families of alcoholics. But honestly it deals with codependency and even if you don't think you have any addiction in your family, they're not going to turn your way.

Nika Lawrie:

Yeah.

Michelle Farris:

CODA is more. It's just a little bit different. It's not as established. It ironically has more like different rules type of thing. So I tend to recommend Al-Anon more, just because it's more established and you can literally find it anywhere right now on Zoom. But those are really good. Codependent no More, melanie Beattie. That's like the Bible of codependency. I really think anybody who's wondering if they're codependent it's really helpful to read her book Awesome.

Nika Lawrie:

And what about yourself? What do you share with your clients and people online?

Michelle Farris:

So I just created a codependency workbook, because when I started my recovery I really, you know, I did Al-Anon and I loved it, but I wanted something. I wish I had had something a little more specific and targeted to people-pleasing self-care boundaries. So I just started to create one.

Michelle Farris:

I love that, yeah, so it's pretty yeah, it's pretty in depth and I have little videos to go with it, so it's really for anyone who wants some relief and a willingness to look at their behaviors like self-care, trusting yourself, boundaries, what are your relationship patterns that are getting in the way, because when we kind of know and can take stock of those behaviors, then we can start to grow and I lead you through exercises for that.

Nika Lawrie:

I love that. I love that you talk about the kind of the patterns too. Is that I think you need some perspective? You need some space from those relationships in order to kind of the patterns too? Is that I think you need some perspective? You need some space from those relationships in order to kind of look back and see like, oh, I keep doing the same thing over and over again, it's just different people and so yeah, Right and sometimes it's going to take years to even see a pattern.

Michelle Farris:

So you know, I really want to normalize it for people that it's not something because codependents are worker bees. So sometimes I've literally heard people say, well, I'm going to come in and I'm going to do 12 weeks and then I'm out, and they will learn very quickly that there's no way, because you can only see what you're ready to see.

Nika Lawrie:

Yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah yeah. Where can listeners connect with you online? Absolutely, yeah yeah. Where can?

Michelle Farris:

listeners connect with you online. So my website is counselingrecoverycom, and so is my Facebook page, which kind of acts like a group. And then I'm on Pinterest and Instagram.

Nika Lawrie:

Wonderful. I'll make sure I link to all of that stuff in the show notes as well. Great, just make it as easy as possible. So I have one last question for you, but before I get to that, I want to just take a moment to recognize you and thank you for the work that you're doing. I think it's so powerful and just life-changing, and so many people need support with it. So I just want to give you thanks for what you're doing.

Michelle Farris:

Oh, thank you Right back at you. I loved hearing your courage about leaving that relationship and being willing to share that with your listeners, because people really need to see that it's really okay to share and to heal and there really doesn't have to be shame with it.

Nika Lawrie:

I think that's been the biggest thing for me is understanding that the more I share and the more I talk about it, the less shame I feel, the more comfortable I'm like. You know what? These are just things that happened to me in my life. It's part of the journey. I've learned from them and obviously there's lots of struggles that come with it. And then knowing that there are other people out there, connecting with people and sharing commiseries or triumphs as well, that's right.

Michelle Farris:

Well, you're helping spread the message.

Nika Lawrie:

So that's great, thank you, I appreciate that. So my last question for you today. It's a question I ask all of my guests, but I'm ready, yes. So what advice do you have to someone that either wants to make change in their life, in their community, in their community or around the world?

Michelle Farris:

So if we do our own personal growth work, we will impact everyone we meet and that, in effect, will impact the world, because as each of us get better, feel better about ourselves, feel more positive, able to handle our anger, that resonates out to our family, yeah, and then the community, and we send that example, like you are, of hey, you know what? Growth should be just part of normal life, instead of it being this thing shoved to the side. So people have a lot more power of influence than they realize, just by their own behavior and what they lead with.

Nika Lawrie:

Absolutely, yeah, I think you know the. The thing to add to that is is the ripple effect doesn't always have to be these big waves. It can be these little effects that you have like on your children, you know so that they are, you know, good influences on your grandchildren and so on, and so, yeah, it can be, it can be those little things that make a huge difference too. Super important point. Yep, love it. Well, michelle, thank you so much for just all your acknowledge your knowledge and sharing it with us, and just your time today.

Michelle Farris:

I'm super grateful, oh thank you so much for having me. You have a wonderful show. Oh, thank you, I appreciate it.

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