Managing Hunger and Emotional Well-Being with Dr. Adrienne Youdim

Dr. Youdim encourages the listener to not only to consider the tools and logistics of a weight loss plan but also to consider the motivating values that inspire them. Throughout this episode, she shares information relevant to an individualized weight-loss journey, including resources to promote self-awareness, journaling exercises, and mindfulness practices.

ABOUT THE GUEST:
Adrienne Youdim, MD, FACP, is an internist who specializes in medical weight loss and nutrition. Her mission is to transform the weight loss narrative to one that is both empowering and compassionate, inspiring people to live more physically and emotionally fulfilling lives. Dr. Youdim draws on best medical practices in the field of obesity medicine and on her patients’ personal value system, trusting that we all inherently know what we need.

CONNECT WITH THE GUEST:
@dradrienneyoudim
@hungryformorebook 

Chapters

• 0:06 Understanding Hunger
• 13:40 Shifting Perspectives on Weight and Health
• 24:06 Nutrition and Self-Care Strategies
• 32:31 Optimizing Nutrition for Satiety and Wellness
• 36:44 Navigating Judgement and Compassion in Nutrition
• 43:51 Weight Loss Surgery
• 50:22 Exploring Conscious and Eco-Friendly Living

Transcript

Nika Lawrie: 0:06

Welcome to the Inspired with Nika Laurie podcast. Dr Adrienne Udim, welcome to the show. I'm so excited to have you here today. Hi, nika, so glad to be with you. Yeah, I'm really excited to talk to you, just kind of deep dive into a whole bunch of areas, but before we really get into the specifics I mean we're going to talk a little bit about the roots of hunger and that connection to weight loss and a whole bunch of good things but again, before we get into that, can you share a little bit about yourself, maybe your backstory and what really inspired you to get into medicine?

Dr. Adrienne Youdim: 0:44

Sure, so, yes, I'm a, I'm a practicing physician and I still see patients um several days a week. Um, and my area of focus is nutrition and primarily weight loss. And um, I used to have a very kind of academic and clinical background. I used to be a medical director at a hospital here and you know, in talking to my patients, I always acknowledge that there's this kind of underlying hunger and the interesting thing is, as a weight loss specialist, our job is to suppress hunger, right.

Dr. Adrienne Youdim: 1:22

To control hunger so that you can help people lose weight, and so I realized that there's kind of this other backstory, this emotional hunger, at play, and so that was a shift for me in terms of not only how I practice medicine, and I think that's where my awareness really began. I don't know, I don't have this backstory of why I went into medicine. I always wanted to do it. But after I took this shift in terms of dealing with people's emotional hunger, spiritual hungers, being more, um, being actionable but also compassionate, is where I think I found my sweet spot and where I was really intended to be in helping people navigate this very emotional, close to heart, you know, topic.

Nika Lawrie: 2:13

Yeah, I love that. I think, you know, one of the things that really kind of fed me into getting healthy and kind of this health and nutrition world was understanding that it wasn't just, you know, the way I looked, or even really just the way I felt physically, but it was also emotionally, like how I felt the the ups and downs of anxiety and depression or you know, feeling good one day and then not the other. And so I love that, as a physician, you're kind of seeing that full picture of of somebody's health. I think it's it's a rare to see, and so I love that you're kind of seeing that full picture of somebody's health. I think it's it's rare to see, and so I love that you're doing that.

Dr. Adrienne Youdim: 2:49

Well, you know, the the cool thing is that actually, the science supports this you know the science really supports the notion that our emotions manage our hunger, and so you probably know that there are.

Dr. Adrienne Youdim: 3:05

There are hormones, gut hormones that regulate our hunger. So when you eat food like, your stomach will send off a hormone that tells your brain woohoo, like we got food down here, yeah, right, got self at hunger valve or hunger switch. But when people are stressed or in distress or you know, emotional, then uh, or have some emotion, the emotion literally hijacks our hunger hormones.

Dr. Adrienne Youdim: 3:33

So that even if you're fed, your hormones signal hunger. So I bring that up because I think it's really important, because a lot of us we have this judgment and also shame around emotional eating or emotional hunger. But if we understand that it's really hardwired in our physiology A we can have more compassion around it and B then it's a starting place for working with ourselves, right Like knowing where to start.

Nika Lawrie: 4:06

Yeah, I mean, I think that's so key and I think it's really there's not enough attention to that in kind of the general medical and health and wellness world. We're always just expected to, you know, tough it out and you know it's all about discipline and and there's such little understanding around you know um leptin and ghrelin and our hormones and how you know how they're moving through our body and really what's triggering them. Um, I think it's it's so true what you're saying.

Dr. Adrienne Youdim: 4:36

And you know a little bit more on the discipline piece, right, because that's something that is always comes to mind when we talk about food and weight, and then, of course, the next thing that comes to mind is diet, and then the next thing that comes to mind is discipline, and there's so much strategy, so to speak, behind the mindset of this stuff. Because when we think about discipline discipline, you know the first thing that comes to my mind is like authoritarian, right, yeah, yeah, um, and while structure is super important, boundaries are super important in helping us stay healthy mind and body, discipline kind of does the opposite thing, right, it's, it's so overly structured or maybe like burdensome that it actually makes us go the other way. And so so much of this is how we hold it in mind. Even if we can reframe the word discipline to a word that and it's used boundaries, right, or care the personal response to that is one of much more openness to what we're doing, as opposed to resistance.

Nika Lawrie: 5:54

I love that. I think that is so key and something I'm going to, for sure, steal and use with my clients. I think I think it's. It's funny how easy changing words changes our emotional response to whatever the situation is.

Dr. Adrienne Youdim: 6:11

Yeah, absolutely.

Nika Lawrie: 6:13

So can you tell us a little bit about you? Know, we've kind of touched on it a little bit, but, but what do you think the misnomers we have about the root cause of hunger really are?

Dr. Adrienne Youdim: 6:24

I mean, I think it's multifold, right? So understanding like the physiology, and understanding physiologic hunger is important. Um, one of the actually the last chapter in my book, hungry for more, which goes through about 40 different emotional, spiritual hungers, the last chapter is just hungry, because sometimes we're just hungry, yeah, and and there's strategies there. I think a lot of times when people are trying to have a healthy relationship with food, somehow that translates into being overly restrictive or starving yourself, and so you're going to be hungry and and you have to respond yourself.

Dr. Adrienne Youdim: 7:06

And so you're going to be hungry and and you have to respond, honor your hunger and respond to your hunger. So that physiologic piece is like one piece, right. But then if we're talking about like the emotional piece or the spiritual piece, really, I mean even like, as the book suggests there's, there's 40 different chapters about, and that's probably just the tip of the iceberg, right Different things that are. You know, to me the hunger is like a void or an itch, or really an unmet need, an unmet psychological need, and when our basic needs are unmet, we seek to soothe that right, and so you can soothe with alcohol, you can soothe with drugs or cigarettes, but I tell my patients, if you're a goody two-shoes, you're going to soothe with a cookie.

Nika Lawrie: 7:55

Right.

Dr. Adrienne Youdim: 7:55

True, yeah. And so what I tell my patients is, and what I talk about in this book, is, for example, think of a time of day that you typically are grabbing for something that you wish you didn't, and so a really common one is what I call the witching hour, that time in the afternoon, yeah, yeah. And the other really common time, which has really been exacerbated over the pandemic, is late night, because now, I mean, people are kind of starting to go back to their routines, but I don't think people are really going back to their sleep routines.

Nika Lawrie: 8:35

Yeah, I don't think so either.

Dr. Adrienne Youdim: 8:36

Right, Like they're waking up. They're taking the kids to school, maybe they're going back into the office, but they're still up late. Right back into the office, but they're still up late, Right. And so then at that time, while they're watching Netflix or whatever they're doing, oftentimes that's a time when people are grabbing for things. So, whatever that time is for you or, you know, for anyone, you know you're not hungry, or first. The first question is are you hungry, Right?

Dr. Adrienne Youdim: 9:01

If you're genuinely hungry, then perhaps you aren't getting enough sleep, or perhaps you skimped on dinner, or perhaps you're not eating adequate protein. I feel like that's an easy one, like let's just address the solid, concrete fact of right, yeah. But if you know you're not hungry which is usually what happens, right, and you're grabbing for something or you feel this pull to like walk down into the pantry, can you stop in that moment and just take a survey of what is the hunger? It's not for food, because you've already said, you're not hungry physiologically. Are you tired? Are you hungry for respite? Because you've just, you know, been on Zoom all day long, right. Are you hungry for connection? Because you're laying next to your husband but he's on his phone and you're on your phone and while you're together you're not really connected, right, yeah, are you hungry for?

Dr. Adrienne Youdim: 10:08

I don't know? I mean, there's so many things belonging autonomy, nature, grieving. So it's really important and, I think, a great starting place, to just pause and don't tell yourself, oh, I shouldn't go down to the pantry. Just ask yourself, like, what is going on here, what am I really hungry for? And then try and soothe or address that, because the other reality is no amount of food you can go down into the pantry, but we know that it's the wrong itch that we're struggling. So no amount of food is really going to address that underlying hunger that's still going to be nagging right At the end of the day.

Nika Lawrie: 10:52

Absolutely. I mean, I think that's so true. The two things I'd add to that. One is a lot of times I'll just tell my clients or people who struggle with those kind of things drink a glass of water first, because often you're just dehydrated and your body's confusing dehydration with with hunger. But I think if you, if you take that moment to just drink the water and you pause and think about it, you know that's one of the reasons I called the podcast the conscious living podcast is I want people to pause for those moments and actually think about why they're doing what they're doing. I want people to pause for those moments and actually think about why they're doing what they're doing. I want them to be conscious about the decisions they are making. Is this the right decision for me and my family, or whatever it is in that moment? And so it really goes to what you're saying why am I hungry at 12 o'clock at night if I've eaten dinner and I've eaten throughout the day? Pause and think about it.

Dr. Adrienne Youdim: 11:47

The bigger piece of that is how often do we grab for something that we don't even, it's not even on our radar right, that we're not even dialed into? How often do we walk past a desk at work and like, grab somebody's M&Ms in a jar or grab a handful of nuts from our kitchen counter, and fine if you want a handful of nuts. But oftentimes in those moments we're not even aware. Right, we're chewing, we're not really tasting, and if someone were to ask you at the end of the day, hey, did you have some nuts today? You very well may say no, not because you're lying, but because you really weren't aware enough to even register.

Nika Lawrie: 12:30

Yeah, absolutely. I think that is really really common for a lot of people struggling with it. I think it's common period. Yeah, that's true.

Dr. Adrienne Youdim: 12:41

Yeah, it's just common.

Nika Lawrie: 12:48

Yeah, that's true. Yeah, yeah, it's just common. So we also, you know, um group being hungry or eating too much, with weight gain or needs for weight loss. Can you talk about some of the biggest myths specifically around weight loss and what we're not thinking about?

Dr. Adrienne Youdim: 13:10

Um well, I'm not sure it sounds like a broad question. I'm not sure quite the angle that you want me to go with that. I feel like we need to really balance, like nourishing our body, and what is good for our body in a healthful sense, what is good for our mind in an emotional sense. Often those things are one in the same right. Right, and I think that if we are continuously betraying ourselves in terms of not taking care of our collective bias against excess weight and our collective discrimination against people who are overweight and I think that is a huge disservice on many levels One, because no one should feel bad for where they are it takes away from the self-acceptance that is so critical to habit change as well as to emotional and mental well-being. But it also has made us steer away from the reality that if people continue to disregard their choices and continue to gain weight, there are health consequences. Yeah Right, not everybody who's overweight will be unhealthy. Not everybody who smokes will have lung cancer. But as a physician, I can't be okay with consistent weight gain, or at least I'm not going to dismiss it If someone is not ready to tackle it, just like if someone is not ready to tackle their smoking. I'm not going to force my intentions down their throat, yeah, but I do think we have to be careful to tease out what we're really trying to say, and the messaging shouldn't be oh, it's okay to gain weight and there are no consequences. The messaging should be we are all collectively gaining weight as a society.

Dr. Adrienne Youdim: 15:40

Right, you are not alone in this. Like, over 80% of people are over what we consider a healthy range, and of course there's a range, and these numbers I don't really like to get into the number game. It really is individualized, but we take a whole population, right, and so, number one, understand the common humanity, like you're not alone, right, absolutely. And number two, right, absolutely. And number two, though, let's recognize that the same things that are going to help you get closer to a healthy body weight are the same things that are going to help you feel better in your body, are the same things that are going to help your mental, emotional, well-being, right.

Dr. Adrienne Youdim: 16:21

So, like, right, sleep deprivation is associated with weight gain, yeah, so, so. So one of the things we recommend is hey, really, honor that time for sleep, because if you're not sleeping, you could be doing everything in your power to manage your food, but those hunger hormones are raging when you're sleep deprived, and so that is good for your weight, but it's also good for your emotional wellbeing less depression, anxiety, moodiness, better memory, better cognition. So I've definitely inserted my personal soapbox here, which is that we should broaden this concept of healthy weight away. From this, I think, almost a backlash, almost a cancer culture of weight loss.

Dr. Adrienne Youdim: 17:14

It's okay to want to lose weight, but let's do it in a way that is mindful of our mental and emotional well-being, as opposed like looking to some Photoshop person on our phone that's giving us the wrong messaging.

Nika Lawrie: 17:28

I I totally agree. I really love that in the sense that for me, I always look at it as it's not specifically looking at the number as in the number on the scale. Um, I think it's really understanding. The issue I have with looking at the number on the scale all the time, or talking about being overweight or being fat or losing weight, is that it's always based off of a societal view of it. A you know how do I look in these clothes? Am I socially accepted because I weigh X amount of pounds? Right? And for me, I really try to get people to stop thinking specifically about the number as it relates to where your ranking is in society. Instead, it's really let's not worry so much about the number, let's really start addressing the things that are going to help you heal your body, and if you really start addressing those things, that number will likely go down as well, and so it's really shifting that perspective on what weight is.

Dr. Adrienne Youdim: 18:32

Yeah, I like that. And I like also really trying to elicit what people's intentions are. And so when I see patients in the office, I like to ask what are you really trying to do here? What is really your intention? And so, yes, they came for weight loss. I'm a weight loss doctor, so it's obvious. Right, they came for weight loss. But there's always a bigger intention, right? Maybe my older grandma wants more mobility so she can run around with her grandchild, or maybe vitality and energy is a big one. So if we can really stay aligned with what that bigger intention is and then also use that as a marker of success Because you can do all the things and you're not going to necessarily see that reflected on the scale on a weekly basis, if you're consistent, you will, but tolerate that disappointment. Let's say, yeah, you tolerate it by recognizing okay, that's not the only measure, right? Right, the big measure is oh, wow, I did feel more energized this week. And if we can stay there you know, really stay there then, yeah, the weight becomes the side effect.

Nika Lawrie: 19:58

Yeah, absolutely. I think that's so key too. Like you said, I can't, you just said and I can't remember exactly how you said it, but if we can remember, you know my energy was better this week, or you know I felt less lethargic this week, or I was able to move my my joints didn't hurt as much this week I think it's really key that we track those things so that we can actually look back and see the progress. I think one reason we get so stuck on the weight number is because that's really our only way of tracking progress, but the reality is there's all these other factors that we could be tracking to that maybe we're not.

Dr. Adrienne Youdim: 20:41

To that point, also recognizing how the changes really feel in your body. So, you know, if, like, we have a binging episode, right, often those episodes are associated with so much shame and guilt, right, and that becomes the primary focus, yeah. But if we can just shut off the the noise and the dialogue and the self badgering in the head and just stay with the body, like really just neck down, okay, what happened in that moment for you? Right, how did your body feel? How did your stomach feel? And I mean, it doesn't even have to be a binge, it can be anything.

Dr. Adrienne Youdim: 21:30

And if we can just stay with that and then really try and respond to what our body is telling us, as opposed to what our mind is telling us, which is often not so nice right, then you can make decisions really based on how you feel. Like, hey, if I put my finger on the stove, it hurts, so I'm not going to put my finger on the stove, okay, I'm not going to say to myself I was an idiot for putting my finger on the stove, I'm just going to stay with the pain in my finger, right. And if we can use that analogy, like, oh my gosh, when I'm going to use the Thin Mints, because now the damn Girl Scout cookies are out again.

Dr. Adrienne Youdim: 22:12

Oh I know, yeah, so like if I eat that whole roll of Thin Mints, reality is I'm not going to feel good in the moment. You know, dopamine is going crazy and I'm like woo.

Dr. Adrienne Youdim: 22:31

But 30 minutes later, 60 minutes, 90 minutes later, when I'm crashing not when my brain is telling me not the guilt, what is my body telling me and I think that is so important and not only motivating our decision making, but also helping us get out of this like negative self-talk and really make decisions from a place of, like you know, feeling, from a place of wellbeing.

Nika Lawrie: 22:55

How do we feel? I mean, I totally agree. I think you know two things that really kind of sparked for me while you were talking about that. One is is, for me, meditation.

Nika Lawrie: 23:07

One of the reasons why I love meditation is that you know if it's guided meditation, it usually tells you to check in with your body and so you can feel how do different parts of your body feel at different times, and so it kind of helps you identify. You know maybe what's going on in there a little bit, instead of just living in our heads and listening to that voice all the time. I think the other thing that you talked about was the kind of dopamine spike, and I know one thing that really helped me change lifestyle habits was really learning and understanding how dopamine is affecting I mean, pretty much everything we do throughout the day, but really understanding the spike and then the hard crash on the other side, so it's not just that we go back to where we were before the spike, but we go even lower and we crash really hard. And understanding that helped me really identify what those triggers were and how they were affecting me.

Dr. Adrienne Youdim: 24:06

Yeah, I mean, let's use that to talk about comfort food, right? Yes, absolutely, and I have no zero problems with, you know, family meals and enjoying decadence or being indulgent once in a while. But let's think about comfort food. So you eat something and, yes, you get a dopamine spike. So palatable or palatable is basically yummy food. Yeah, yeah, spike dopamine, and then it's going to drop and then you want it again, right? So then it not only, it's basically a chase, so you continue to go after that dopamine spike.

Dr. Adrienne Youdim: 24:48

I think the really messed up thing about dopamine is not only the rise and fall that keeps you wanting for more, but that, as time goes on, let's take the. Let's not talk about comfort food. Let's take wine as an example. Yeah, you are going to require more of that thing in order to get the dopamine spike. And so I think, when people think about in terms of wine, like, yes, a glass of wine a night used to take the edge off. Um, why is it that after six months or so now, it's like, ooh, I'm going for two glasses, or maybe I'm going for three glasses. I'm going for two glasses, or maybe I'm going for three glasses and it's because your dopamine levels now are sensitized. Yeah, and more of that thing is necessary. That is so important right In understanding our habitual behavior. Not only is there a rise and fall, but dopamine is upping the emotional Annie.

Nika Lawrie: 25:45

Right, yeah, I mean, that is it. That is the reason we become so addicted to things. I mean, I think I, if there's one thing I can teach people like I wish, that would be it, because it really helps you understand your daily motivations. It helps you understand your, your um, your cravings of yous, of maybe these quote unquote unhealthy foods, or why you're struggling. We talk all the time about willpower and you have to have the willpower to quit, but understanding that this is actually a hormonal, physiological thing going on in our bodies, I think it's so key. I love that you're sharing that.

Dr. Adrienne Youdim: 26:26

I also want to piggyback something you said earlier in terms of meditation. Meditation is something that you know I you know several years ago I would have never, ever engaged in. It was just not part of my like worldview. And then, when I realized there's so many scientific benefits you know I'm like a science person, show me the data I was like, okay, I'm in, and so I started recommending it to my patients. I do know, however, that that's a big bite for a lot of people, it's just something they can't wrap their heads around, and so one of the questions that came about after I published the book is that people who had read the book were then saying OK, now how do? How do I know what I'm hungry for? Right, because the book actually doesn't.

Dr. Adrienne Youdim: 27:18

I mean, I talk about things own again, need for autonomy when I was in this really prestigious position at a really prestigious medical institution. But I hungered for autonomy, and so I talk about these hungers in terms of my patient's experiences. It's a deeply personal book. I talk about my own experiences, patient's experiences. It's a deeply personal book. I talk about my own experiences, but people sometimes are like, well, I don't know what that hunger is. So, yes, meditation is a great way to reach that, but really any kind of meditative or introspective process that forces us to kind of slow down from doing into being, and so some of the things that I suggest to people is journaling. Writing practices are amazing. Breathing, you know, you can just do the breaths without doing the meditation. The meditation, um, walking outdoors in nature, I mean it doesn't have to be, you know, being on a lily pad, yeah, but I encourage people to really carve out the time to do something.

Dr. Adrienne Youdim: 28:40

Ooh, coloring, that's another one I thought about in the book. Coloring that's another one I talk about in the book. Actually, the neurotransmitters that get released in our brain when we color and the connection that forms between neurons in our brains, I mean the science behind coloring, the neuroscience behind coloring, is really fascinating. So pick one that sounds good and then really make a commitment to do it on a regular basis, and what you will find is, with time, just that fact of like, slowing down enables the thing to come, the realization to come, and that's so important, something that moms don't do they're spending all their times with their kids. Right, people who are working, maybe moms who are working, but spending all of their productive time producing for work, but this is so integral, not only to our own wellbeing but, by the way, it also has been shown to enhance productivity and relationships. So, whatever you're trying to do in your life, you know, be the best parent, be the best worker, be be the best entrepreneur, right?

Nika Lawrie: 29:56

This is yeah, I love that. I totally agree. When, when before, I worked for myself, I I had a very busy, um, constant on the go kind of corporate job and I was a mom and I was trying to do all of it Right and one of the things that I would find was I was completely frazzled when I'd come home and be with my, my daughter, and try to, you know, make dinner and make everything happen before it was bedtime. And one of the things that I implemented was kind of the five-minute rule and I would do it at lunchtime leaving my office, and then I would do it coming home from work and I would literally just take five minutes. Often I would sit just in my car, turn the car off and just sit there.

Nika Lawrie: 30:40

Sometimes the warm sunlight would feel good, but literally I would just set a timer on my phone and just sit for five minutes no radio, no, you know social media just sit and kind of breathe for a few minutes. And I found doing that, even just once a day it was always better twice a day but it just kind of gave me a whole reset. It just made me feel ready and prepared and relaxed to go in the house and cook dinner and do the you know, do the homework with my daughter and all the chores and all those things that it allowed me to just pause for that minute and I think it's um, it's such a simple thing that you know we're not taking advantage of as a society.

Dr. Adrienne Youdim: 31:20

Yeah, it takes, it takes intent, you know. It takes intention to carve out that space and time.

Nika Lawrie: 31:27

Absolutely so. You've you've touched on it a little bit, but but you're you're really passionate about nutrition. Can you talk about really the relationship between nutrition and kind of weight gain and weight loss? I know that also is kind of a broad question, but maybe give us two or three pointers that you think is really important to identify.

Dr. Adrienne Youdim: 31:49

Yeah, I mean, I'm not, as you can probably tell, I'm not into the fat diets. I always joke like we don't need to pee on a keto stick to know that we're eating the right thing or the wrong thing. That we're eating the right thing or the wrong thing, yeah, well, actually, and I think you know most of us know, right, like, more from the earth, less from the pantry, right, yeah, a whole and unprocessed and clean, and less, you know, processed. More from the fridge, right, less from the cupboard. I think we intuitively know, but I do understand that we get confused because there's a lot of garbage and noise out there. Yes, some of my main principles are number one most of the people I see are way under consuming protein way. So protein is the most satiating macronutrient and we should be consuming, with every meal and depending on your weight, roughly 20 grams of protein per meal. So an egg is seven grams, three ounces of chicken is about 25, 27 grams. A tablespoon of peanut butter is only two grams. These maybe only four grams per ounce. So consider that. You know I'm not into counting calories, but maybe if we just track grams and you realize that, like wow, for breakfast, you're not really having any protein, and then for lunch you're kind of skimping on protein too. You're going to be more hungry, so protein is important. The other thing I recommend is and I don't limit it, right, so all this thing of like eat, like as much as the palm of your hand. I'm always like whose hand I have small hands. Right, yeah, I don't want to follow that rule right as much as my husband's palm of my husband's hand. So, right, yeah, enough. No one's gaining weight from chicken.

Dr. Adrienne Youdim: 33:44

The next thing I recommend is, um, really double your veggies. So I'm not, we're not limiting the amount of protein. This is not. Nothing is in a restrictive mindset, it's all in an abundant mindset.

Dr. Adrienne Youdim: 33:58

And when you think of veggies, yes, they're low calorie and all that, but every like arugula is my favorite example because it's I love it. I eat it every day. Arugula is only two calories per cup. That's less than chewing gum, but it has 30 vitamins, minerals and antioxidants. That's huge, huge. So if you just think about it, like if I want to get all the colors really in a intention to extract the most nutrients out of my food every day, then double that amount in your plate and really think of it not as a calorie game, but as a holy cow. How many vitamins, minerals, phytochemicals and antioxidants am I getting from this plate?

Dr. Adrienne Youdim: 34:47

And then my last tip is don't be afraid of carbs, let's just go for the good ones. I mean a cup of beans, grains or legumes. So much fiber, so many B vitamins that are important in cognitive health and mood. Additional source of protein so it doesn't have to only be animal protein, but you're getting protein from that too. Slow breakdown, which means that you get a slow rise in blood sugar, as opposed to what you were talking about, the spikes and the crash right, which makes you feel lethargic and shitty. So it's really about picking your food in terms of like what it's doing for you and eating so much of what serves you so that you have less desire for what doesn't. That's such a different mindset than don't eat cookies.

Nika Lawrie: 35:44

Right, yeah, absolutely yeah, yeah so go ahead, no, go ahead.

Dr. Adrienne Youdim: 35:50

So that's just the way, you know, I like to approach it. I like to approach it from a place of empowerment. Yeah, I mean, if then we're going and having five cookies every night, or a sleeve of what were they? Thin mints, thin mints, yeah Right, then we have to, you know, kind of consider our environment and create an environment for success. But I like the idea. I mean, even just telling you is talking about it, I like thinking about food. That way, it sounds like I have agency, you know, and that feels good.

Nika Lawrie: 36:23

Yeah, I think, I think, um, from my perspective too, it's really important to understand, um, you know, these highly processed foods that end up mostly being, you know, nutrient deficient, high carb, low good anything you know, low fats, low vitamins, low minerals, all of those things. Those one also make our dopamine spike and crash, but they also are oftentimes designed specifically to make us crave them more and more. There's specific chemicals or the way the chip's been texturized and things like that make us crave more of it. And so, understanding that when we're eating those whole real healthy foods, we have a lot more control over our own cravings and our own dopamine spikes, I guess, just to go back to that again, and you know, I think it's important for people to realize that we don't have to be perfect in order to be effective.

Dr. Adrienne Youdim: 37:25

You know, a lot of times a patient will come and they'll, you know, describe, they'll only focus on the setbacks, right yeah.

Dr. Adrienne Youdim: 37:36

And then we can show them oftentimes that even despite the setback, you know they were able to lose a pound or half a pound, and so that just shows you that your body it's not all or nothing.

Dr. Adrienne Youdim: 37:48

The problem with seeing it in that way is that we often sabotage ourselves. So if we do have the five cookies, or whatever the case may be, and then we get upset about it and internalize that, then we're much more likely to throw in the towel, whereas if you can just accept it for what it is, you know, a setback or a slip up, or maybe it was a mindful indulgence, maybe we chose to, and great, then you can still achieve, you know, what you want for yourself. It doesn't have to be perfection all the time in order for it to be effective. Be perfection all the time in order for it to be effective, and the science actually shows that when we have that perfection mindset, we are more likely to sabotage and are less likely to reach our goals, and so that's something to really keep in mind. Again, the mantra that I always say is you don't have to be perfect in order to be effective.

Nika Lawrie: 38:45

Absolutely. Yeah, I'm a big believer in sort of the 80-20 rule or maybe the 90-10 rule, depending on how extreme on that level you want to go. Or even if you're starting out, even if you can get to like 60-40, or even if you're just starting out getting to that kind of 50, 50 range of you know and progressively improving that in the sense of you know half really high quality good food and then half your normal processed food intake, and then trying to improve that by adding in the good stuff over time so that you know you're you're buying less of the processed foods and you're adding in more of the good stuff.

Dr. Adrienne Youdim: 39:27

Yeah, that's a process.

Nika Lawrie: 39:28

Yeah, definitely Kind of bouncing off of this. You know, one of the things that you say is staying judgment-free really helps us help our success or be more successful. Can you add anything to that that kind of helps us stay in that judgment-free zone?

Dr. Adrienne Youdim: 39:45

Yeah, I mean, I think first, people should just recognize what happens when they judge themselves right. First, people should just recognize what happens when they judge themselves right. It's very clear when you judge, you sabotage or you fall off the wagon, or whatever you want to call it. We're at a fork when we have a setback, and either we can have compassion for ourselves in that moment and dust ourselves off and continue, or we can stay in that judgment zone and then most likely divert our attention from the goal at hand, which is to continue doing what we're doing. So judgment does get in the way. Now, if we know that thinking is part of the human condition and that the majority of our thoughts tend to be negative because that is also part of the human condition yeah, the first step is to just be aware of that. Right, how often does a negative thought pop into your head? How often? And I think people don't realize that, from the moment we open our eyes, we're already judging.

Dr. Adrienne Youdim: 40:55

You go in front of the bathroom why are my eyes puffy? You take your clothes off to get in the shower oh my God, look at my butt. And then you put your clothes on. Oh, my shirt got tight. I mean, it's just incessant.

Dr. Adrienne Youdim: 41:06

So I think it's a matter of awareness and just noticing in those moments, and once you're aware, to try and shift. Can I just be kind to myself or can I just offer compassion? And I think that's also a hard pill to swallow. And so what I often tell my patients is think about what you just said, right, and think about a child in your life.

Dr. Adrienne Youdim: 41:35

Maybe it's your own child, maybe it's a niece or nephew, maybe it's even your pet. Imagine your pet like rams into a wall by accident because he's looking at you. I mean, whatever the case may be, if that child is like playing in the park with an ice cream cone and falls, and the ice cream falls all over the sandbox, whatever, and she's upset and obviously embarrassed, what do you do in that moment? Do you hold her and say, oh, I'm so sorry, accidents happen, that must feel so bad. Acknowledge the hurt and give love and compassion? Or do you say, oh, yeah, you're so stupid for running with that ice cream cone? And so I think when you put it in terms of like a child and recognize that like you're someone's child, too right, if you want to speak that way to a child, then you shouldn't speak that way to yourself.

Nika Lawrie: 42:34

Yeah.

Dr. Adrienne Youdim: 42:35

And maybe that's an opening to kind of soften a little bit in terms of how we speak to ourselves.

Nika Lawrie: 42:42

Absolutely. I remember hearing something really I think it was Glennon Doyle, I can't remember who said it, some author, but she was talking about, you know negative comments that we say to ourselves, and if we wouldn't say that out loud in person, face to face, to one of our best friends, why would we dare say it to ourselves? And I think you know it goes back if we're not willing to say it to a child, why are we willing to say it to ourselves too? Yeah, yeah. So I have a couple of quick fire questions, but I want to ask you one last question, cause I, I, I get asked about it a lot and I think it's. You know, it was really big a couple of years ago. I think people are still kind of focusing on it now. But what are your thoughts around weight loss surgery, and are there any concerns or things that we should be aware of there?

Dr. Adrienne Youdim: 43:39

So I am open to everything available in our toolbox. I'm open to dietary strategies not keto sticks, but dietary strategies, behavioral strategies. I personally prescribe medications for weight loss and they are appropriate in certain settings. And I think weight loss surgery is appropriate in certain settings too. There are clear indications for that. There are changes that occur metabolically with weight loss surgery or bariatric surgery, so it's not just a matter of shrinking down the stomach. So it is much. But actually those hormones the ghrelin and, you know, glp-1 and anyway, hunger hormones change and they can be very effective in the right person. So I think it's important for someone who is considering that number one to go to a center that is really comprehensive, so a place that has dieticians on staff, maybe a medical weight loss specialist like myself, psychologists, and oftentimes it's required that patients go through assessments by all these individuals. But I think more than an assessment is important. It's important to really dig into the physical, behavioral, emotional aspects of food and just use the surgery.

Dr. Adrienne Youdim: 45:03

If it's indicated as a tool, it's not a standalone thing. It is highly effective when it is used in conjunction with all of our other tools. So typically we say people who are a hundred pounds or overweight are candidates, people who could be less than that overweight but have metabolic issues like poorly controlled or longstanding diabetes. It's actually highly effective for diabetes. And then going to a center where it is comprehensive. And then also another important technical but very important point is surgeon's experience. So there are surgeons who kind of do this once in a while. Those aren't the surgeons you want to go to, because we know that the complication rate is directly proportional to the number of cases that the surgeon has done, which makes sense, right the more you do it the more adept.

Dr. Adrienne Youdim: 46:00

They are so really going somewhere where the surgeon it's his bread and butter, something that he does on a regular basis, and so you can never say there's zero risk, there's no such thing. We walk across the street. That's not zero risk. But we can mitigate risk when going to a surgeon who is highly qualified and has high volumes of cases.

Nika Lawrie: 46:27

I love that you say that it's a tool. Tool and I worry sometimes that people go into it thinking that it's the cure and, and for me, I think there's a time and place for a lot of different things, whether it's prescription medications or surgeries, or dietary, you know, and lifestyle changes. The thing that that I see a lot is people don't understand the hormonal changes that come with doing something like that, and then also the need for diet and lifestyle change. Once you've had the surgery, you can't simply just go back to eating the way you were, because it doesn't. You're still going to struggle with those issues that you had before.

Dr. Adrienne Youdim: 47:05

Yeah, I mean, I think with medication, with surgery and with medications, basically, what happens is there's a honeymoon period, right, there's a time in which it's highly effective and I see that as a time in which it is helping you do everything that you're trying to do. So, let's say you're really trying to eat less. You know that your portions are way too big. It takes a lot for you to feel full, but you're genuinely hungry, right, it's hard for you to eat less even though you know you're overeating.

Dr. Adrienne Youdim: 47:35

The medications or the surgery will help you feel full with less right, so that you do it enough times that by the time the surgery or the medication quote wears off and it doesn't exactly wear off, but just for the purposes of this conversation, it's simple. Then you have gone also your mind, um, and your habits, in line with having less and being satisfied with less. But if we're going into it with this, like I'm going to test my limits perspective and sometimes people do like, oh, can I push you, can I push the buttons of the surgery there will be a time, usually 12 to 18 months after surgery, where that effect, that hormonal effect, is not as strong and then weight regain occurs. So ideally, people are working with somebody like you or working with someone like me and then get this as an adjunct to help them do the things that they're having trouble doing.

Nika Lawrie: 48:44

Right, right, I'm glad you added the 12 to 18 months. That was going to be. One of my questions for you is how long you thought the kind of honeymoon period was it's variable.

Dr. Adrienne Youdim: 48:54

I have patients who are like. After six to nine months they're like, but this clinical studies show that typically that timeframe is 12 to 18 months. Okay, Okay.

Nika Lawrie: 49:06

So I do have those quick fire questions. But before I get to that, where can listeners connect with you? How can they get ahold of your book and share all their thoughts with you?

Dr. Adrienne Youdim: 49:15

Well, I am on Instagram at Dr Adrienne Udim and all of my things can be found there the health bite podcast which I do weekly, which are short little health bites towards mental, emotional and physical wellbeing. My book, hungry for more, can also be found there or on Amazon and um, given that it's Valentine's week when we're recording, not necessarily when this is released, but the book is really my love letter to my patients, um, because I feel like I have been in a privileged position to hear people's stories and to see how universal they are, and that common humanity has really been nourishing for me personally, and so I think if anyone is really struggling with these issues, the book really speaks to the common humanity piece and is my way of validating your experiences. So all of that can be found there or on my website, dradrienneudimcom.

Nika Lawrie: 50:16

Love it. I will make sure I link to everything in the show notes to just make it as easy as possible to find Wonderful. So are you ready for the quick fire questions? I'm ready, sister. Okay. So first one what is your favorite or most impactful book, podcast or documentary, and why?

Dr. Adrienne Youdim: 50:34

Oh well, there's so many, there's so many. The first one that comes to mind is a podcast called On being by Krista Tippett. She is incredibly intelligent and speaks to many thought leaders from a spiritual perspective. So she'll talk to even physicists and brain scientists, but she brings out the spiritual. So I'm going to say Krista Tippett on being.

Nika Lawrie: 51:06

Love it. I just typed in my notes so I could remember to look that up and I'll find the link and show that in the show notes too. Okay, so you've kind of already shared a couple, but if you, if you, have some more thoughts on it, what is your best toxin-free or eco-friendly living tip?

Dr. Adrienne Youdim: 51:25

Toxin-free or eco-living. You know I I really am a use your refrigerator person. You know, I feel like sometimes when we think about toxins and being environmentally conscious, it can be a little bit intimidating, and even for me. I mean, I have my oldest child is going to college and she is way more savvy about these things than I am. She's always schooling me on the things that I'm doing. That could be more eco-friendly. But I think if we just be simple about it, right, and really just go down to the basics and my number one basic is really use your refrigerator to consume foods that are alive.

Nika Lawrie: 52:14

Alive. Yeah, yeah, so key, and I mean it's good for the planet and good for your health. In that sense too, definitely. So my final question for you today what does conscious living mean to you?

Dr. Adrienne Youdim: 52:29

Conscious living, I want to say, is a? Um, I want to put in a disclaimer that it is a practice in a process. Um, I think a lot of times when people hear uh, people like us talk, they may be wrong. They may wrongly assume that we have all of our ducks in a row. Yeah, and the truth is that for every human on the planet, it is a work in progress, absolutely so. Conscious living for me is the attempt to stay and remain in a place of mindfulness and awareness, with the understanding that I'm never going to get it perfectly and I am a work in progress.

Nika Lawrie: 53:13

Love that. That's. One thing I always say is that is just keep working at it. It's like don't worry about perfection, it's just making the effort.

Dr. Adrienne Youdim: 53:21

Absolutely yeah.

Nika Lawrie: 53:22

Well, dr Udom, I'm so grateful for having you on the show. I want to commend you for all the work that you're doing with your patients. I think it's so powerful and so needed, especially with the pandemic of health issues and, you know, weight issues that we're seeing all over the world, but specifically here in the United States, and I just I'm grateful for your, your time and sharing the knowledge with us today. So, thank you.

Dr. Adrienne Youdim: 53:47

Thank you, it was a great conversation. Thanks for the platform. Absolutely Thank you.